Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V13_7/V13_746.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #746

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 746

Today's Topics:
         Re: Bootstrapping with extraterrestrial ice
              Re: Body Mass Measurements
      Re: Excavating (mining) gold in the space by NASA.
                   Re: Gold
               Re: The Un-Plan
            Re: Excavating (minig) gold in
           Jonathan's Space Report, Jun 14
         Re: Bootstrapping with extraterrestrial ice

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 91 01:30:41 GMT
From: van-bc!rsoft!mindlink![e-mail]  (Nick Janow)
Subject: Re: Bootstrapping with extraterrestrial ice

[e-mail] (Nick Szabo) writes:

> The scenario I envision is moving ice in batches of 1,000-10,000 tons each in
> gravity assist trajectories.  This is perfectly safe, since the trajectory is
> predictable,...

Unfortunately, the general population (and politicians and anti-space crazies)
have very vague ideas of Newtonian physics.  They get their knowledge of
asteroidal trajectories from  poorly-written bestsellers, TV and movies, where
the Enterprise keeps going into "spiral orbits", the asteroids that evil
corporate leaders moved to Earth orbit suddenly change direction and will
strike <place name of large city here>, and Jupiter spews out Velikovskian
planets that careen about the solar system before magically falling into a
near-circular orbit.

You may show these people indisputable proof that an asteroid will follow a
safe trajectory, but hey, they know it can go wild and hit the Earth--they saw
in in <movie, Star Trek, etc)!

Remember, these people believe in astrology, not astronomy.  :(

Maybe the group that wants to bring an asteroid/comet fragment into Earth orbit
should invest a few millions in producing some movies/TV-series.  :)
--

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 91 17:47:59 GMT
From: pmafire![e-mail]  (Alan Herbst)
Subject: Re: Body Mass Measurements


In a recent post I asked:
>
>How are body mass measurements made aboard the shuttle in the weight-
>lessness of space?  Is it the mirco-gravity at 180 miles up?
>
A good answer was received from:

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
   <[e-mail]>

"There are various devices used, including spring-based mechanisms which
"bounce" the crew member off a spring and calculate body mass through
f=ma, a "shaker" mechanism which moved crew members around and
calculated their mass by measuring inertia, and several others.  I once
took a class from Dr. Thornton, a former astronaut (STS-51C) and
researcher of human physiology in space.  Fascinating stuff.  The main
problem with all zero-G mass measurement systems for humans has been
that people are flexible and mostly fluid.  When measuring a flexible,
fluid-filled body by bouncing or shaking, that body tends to wiggle and
slosh, which throws off the mass measurements."

---
Thanks to all who replied.
--
Alan Herbst - WINCO Computer Engineering Group
208-526-3939, 0800 to 1615 MST
Path: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 91 18:34:24 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu![e-mail],
        [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Excavating (mining) gold in the space by NASA.


====================================================================
  In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Cray Hardware
Support) writes:

  Today's Washington Post reports that an asteroid has been found orbiting the
Sun at a distance of about 20 million miles from Earth (closest point).  It
apparently contains 10000 tons of gold and 100000 tons of platinum, as well as
10 billion tons of iron and 1 billion tons of nickel.  Its estimated worth was
put at around 1 trillion dollars.

  This might be one of the first real applications of Space technology. I say
NASA should issue stocks to built a space craft to go and bring that thing
down.  This could open up another very lucrative investment, a side from
satellites.  The technology we gain could help us mine other things in the
space too.  Then, boldly going were no man has gone before makes business sense
to.
=====================================================================


    I'm no economist, but wouldn't the introduction of that much gold and
platinum into the market *drastically* decrease its value, making this a
questionable financial venture? Sure, I know these materials also have crutial
industrial applications, so we're not just dealing with jewelry here.
    But we're talking about a cubes of pure gold and platinum 25.53 and 53.09
feet on a side respectively. I would think this kind of find, if it were dug up
tomarrow in the middle of Nebraska, would do really nastiy things to our
gold-based (?) economy.
    Can anyone with some econ background comment on this?

    Greg Derylo
    [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 91 02:20:15 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!rex!rouge![e-mail]  (Fraering Philip)
Subject: Re: Gold

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William ) writes:

>Not to be negative, but this is about 0.0001% gold and .001% platinum.
>Unless this is lying around in convient chunks (not very likely), the
>fact that there is 20E6 miles of vacuum is only a small worry.  (similar
>to the oft repeated fact that each cubic mile of seawater contains $$$$
>in precious metals.)  Eventually (hopefully?) such rocks will be mined
>primarilly for their nickel/iron content...

Until we check, we won't know whether or not the gold and other
precious metals are differentiated or not.

Are there any geophysicists (the inside the earth kind) that can
tell us about differentiation?

Phil Fraering
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 91 23:24:54 GMT
From: ogicse!sequent!muncher.sequent.com![e-mail]
Subject: Re: The Un-Plan


In article <[e-mail]> Jim Bowery writes:

>[Insightful comments on space development scenarios]

>We
>do need to be careful about SPS, however.  Especially in the current
>environment that is making noises about "economic conversion."  We
>could end up with s trillion dollar Fred-like abortion if we aren't
>careful.

We need to distinguish between the all-or-nothing, centrally planned
approach and a more reasonable build-up.  All-or-nothing, and we
we can lose a trillion, easy.  But private industry would go about it
in quite a different way:

"Hey, this is GEO.  We can park and aim the beam darn near anywhere on
Earth.  OK, who pays the most for electricity on this planet.  Wow,
Japanese pay $.20/kwh!  They're planning on spending $150 billion over
the next ten years on nuclear plants, and if anybody has reason to hate
nuclear it's Japan.  Let's build the first ground station off Kyushu.
While we're at it, let's talk to each zaibatsu and see which one will
invest the most up-front yen for the first prototype."

Et cetera. We start small in the best niche market, and expand from there.
No glorious "save the world from the energy crisis" until we've mastered
the basics.  If we can't deliver a few megawatts to Kyushu for $.20/kwh,
we're not going to be able to solve anybody's energy crisis.  And that's
it: at worst, a $billion down the hole for the Kyushu prototype.  At
best, the growth of an industry that could supply earth with cheap energy
for the next billion years.

I don't suspect any utility is seriously going to look at SPS until we've
mastered the art of mining asteroids for other purposes.   Once we can
mine and process asteroids, making cheap solar cells (silicon beads on
aluminum foil) in huge quantities is easy.  But it's too early to tell
for sure.

                        best regards,

                            Nick

--
Nick Szabo            [e-mail]
Embrace Change...  Keep the Values...  Hold Dear the Laughter...
These views are my own, and do not represent any organization.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 91 13:08:00 GMT
From: cix.compulink.co.uk![e-mail]  (Codesmiths)
Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in

In-Reply-To:  [e-mail] (Sehari Babak)

TITLE: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.

> >>Today's Washington Post reports that an asteroid has been found orbiting the
> >>Sun at a distance of about 20 million miles from Earth (closest point).  It
> >>apparently contains 10000 tons of gold and 100000 tons of platinum, as well
> >>as 10 billion tons of iron and 1 billion tons of nickel.  Its estimated
> >>worth was put at around 1 trillion dollars.

> I assume this could be possible if the price of gold goes much higher.

I think an increasing gold price will be little incentive to start
asteroid mining, and if anything, would be an argument against it.
There are too many financial institutions which depend on a
relatively stable gold price. Imagine the effects on government
gold reserves, if 10000 tons of gold suddenly hit the market. The
South African economy (heavily dependent on gold mining) would
disappear overnight ! These financial interests have powerful
government lobbies, and some are governments themselves (including
the US). How would a mining expedition be funded, if it was directly
against the interests of the groups which control the money supply ?

The biggest boost to asteroid mining would be a sudden, vital need
for a volume of one of these metals (platinum catalysts ?), far in
excess of current supplies. (This would undoubtedly put the price up
anyway as a side effect, but it's a different situation to a general
market led rise in price). It would need to be a pretty urgent need
to override the financial pressures against it.

I can't imagine any way of safely bringing a whole asteroid to the
earth's surface for a long, long time. Even if it was brought down in
small pieces it would still be several orders of magnitude beyond
present technology.

What would be needed to smelt the asteroid in situ, and just bring
back the most valuable metals ? Any experts on asteroid geology on
the net ? How feasible would a portable smelter be, which attached
itself to the asteroid, deployed a large mirror & using direct solar
energy to supply process heat ? As space comes with a free vacuum
system :-), would electromagnetic separation be more efficient ?

   _
 /  ) ' ,_   ,  /   _ ) _/_       [e-mail]
/_ / / / / (_) /_) (_)  /_        [phone]
          (_)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 91 16:59:06 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!freedom!xanth![e-mail]  (Jonathan McDowell)
Subject: Jonathan's Space Report, Jun 14


Jonathan's Space Report

Jun 14 1991 (no.76)
----------------------------------------------------

Columbia landed at 1539UT on Jun 14, on runway 22 at Edwards AFB.
This completed the STS-40 Spacelab Life Sciences
1 mission.  Atlantis is being processed for the STS-43 mission which
will deploy another Tracking and Data Relay Satellite; this will be
followed by Discovery's STS-48 mission to launch the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite.  After the current mission, Columbia will undergo
modification for extended duration flights, its next mission being
another Spacelab flight about a year from now. This week Columbia
recaptured the 'Orbiter with most flight hours' record from Discovery,
with a total of 1804 hours 23 minutes in its 11 flights.

Anatoliy Artsebarksiy and Sergey Krikalyov continue in orbit
aboard the Mir/Kvant/Kvant-2/Kristall/Soyuz TM-12/Progress M-8 complex.

An Okean oceanographic remote sensing satellite built by NPO Yuzhnoye was
launched on Jun 4 by Tsiklon from Plesetsk.

Correction: the date of the Delta 111 explosion was May 1,
according to calculations by Mike McCants. Also, the deployment
of the classified USA-70 satellite, international designation
1991-31C, from the STS-39 mission is now confirmed.

___________________________________
|Current STS status:              |
|Orbiters                         |
|                                 |
|OV-102 Columbia        EAFB RW22 |
|OV-103 Discovery       OPF Bay 1 |
|OV-104 Atlantis        OPF Bay 2 |
|OV-105 Endeavour       VAB Bay 2 |
|                                 |
|ML/ET/SRB stacks                 |
|                                 |
|ML1/STS-43/ET          VAB Bay 1 |
|ML2                              |
|ML3                    VAB Bay 3 |
-----------------------------------


10 years ago: 4 Jun 1981. The Kosmos-1275 navigation satellite was launched.
On 1981 Jul 24 it disintegrated into many pieces, possibly as a result of colliding
with another space object.

20 years ago: 6 Jun 1971. The first space station mission, with cosmonauts
Georgiy Dobrovol'skiy, Vladislav Volkov and Viktor Patsaev launched in
Soyuz-11 to dock with the Salyut space lab and spend 22 days aboard.
Just prior to reentry on 29 June, a valve on the Soyuz-11 accidentally failed
open venting the cabin air and causing the deaths of all three crew members.

20 years ago: 15 Jun 1971. The first KH-9 HEXAGON ("Big Bird") spy satellite
was launched. The Big Bird has now been superseded by the Advanced Crystal
and Lacrosse recon satellites.

30 years ago: 8 Jun 1961. The Discoverer 24 spy satellite failed to reach orbit
when its Agena engine did not ignite. Discoverer 25 completed a succesful mission
Jun 16-19.

(c) 1991 Jonathan McDowell. Information in this report is obtained
from public sources and does not reflect the official views of NASA.

 .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
 |  Jonathan McDowell                 |  phone : [phone]                 |
 |  Space Science Lab ES65            | uucp:                                  |
 |  NASA Marshall Space Flight Center | bitnet :                               |
 |  Huntsville AL 35812               |  inter : [e-mail]  |
 |  USA                               |   span : ssl::mcdowell                 |
 '-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 91 00:17:32 GMT
From: sequent!muncher.sequent.com![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bootstrapping with extraterrestrial ice

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Janow) writes:
>[e-mail] (Nick Szabo) writes:
>
>> The scenario I envision is moving ice in batches of 1,000-10,000 tons each in
>> gravity assist trajectories.  This is perfectly safe, since the trajectory is
>> predictable,...
>
>Unfortunately, the general population (and politicians and anti-space crazies)
>have very vague ideas of Newtonian physics.  They get their knowledge of
>asteroidal trajectories from  poorly-written bestsellers, TV and movies, where
>the Enterprise keeps going into "spiral orbits",

So we will write the stuff. That's what the PR department is for.  These
things naturally and harmlessly fall into the Earth every few years,
we are 100% non-nuclear, the orbit has the most precise geometry one could
hope for -- as illustrated by two delicious ice cream cones.  Etc. :-)
Reviewing the Christic rhetoric (you can read tons of their spiel in the
newsgroup misc.activism.progressive) their two space-related concerns
are the Shuttle creating ozone holes and plutonium launching on the Shuttle.
And they don't even care about those if El Salvador or Nicaragua is in
the news.  You don't see anything about expendable SRB's or the Galileo
flybies.  They care about stuff that is on TV, not anything as boring
or out of sight as an ice flyby.  Furthermore, even when they did care
about plutonium on the Shuttle they weren't able to get very far.

It's too early to tell, but I suspect the only political danger is the
opposite one -- "out of sight, out of mind."  People won't really
care even for truly dangerous projects, such as aerobraking a
large asteroid or military use of asteroid material as missiles.
Until the first big one hits and it gets on TV, of course.

Jim Bowery has a good rule of thumb here.  Insurance companies get paid
to judge risk correctly.  If we can demonstrate to an insurance company
that we're safe, and get coverage, political problems will likely be
secondary.

>Remember, these people believe in astrology, not astronomy.  :(

So what part of the zodiac is the flyby going through?  The stars
portend a safe journey and much riches.  :-)



--
Nick Szabo            [e-mail]
Embrace Change...  Keep the Values...  Hold Dear the Laughter...
These views are my own, and do not represent any organization.

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #746
*******************